Midnight Pub

Burning the library of Alexandria

~detritus

Every now and then, something gets hold of me and I go ahead and wipe the big collection of books that I had collected up to that point. Why do I do that? Of course, I could always point to the stuff that happens at home, maybe even try to blame my partner for it. That would be completely unfair of course. It is true that usually a domestic discussion is the catalyst that leads to this "great cleansing", but it is by no means the ultimate cause of it. So why is it then? Why, after all the time spent looking for, selecting and cataloguing books on many different and interesting subjects I go on a whim and with a single command delete everything that I have so far collected?

In ecology there is this notion of periodic events of "frenzied consumers" devouring all the diversity that had thus far accumulated in the environment, leaving it in a state of /tabula rasa/, for things to start and develop again almost from scratch; such is the nature of the current situation with humans and their environment. Outside of ecology, I can think of a number of similar examples. In the sphere of "current events" comes to mind the current situation in Argentina, where a similar phenomenon is currently unfolding on the institutional context. On a broader scale, cultures and empires also see this periodical collapse of the established order returning to a more or less disperse social order. A familiar example, of course, would be the end of the roman world into the 'middle ages' and a distributed feudal order. Closer to our topic can be the burnings of the alexandrian library, or the great burning of books by Qin Shi HuangDi in the late third century BCE.

What do these all have in common? Am I just trying to abstract some semblance of a pattern in what are really isolated events without any relation? At first glance, it may seem so, I am sure some would readily dismiss my meditations as such and quickly forget about it. Such is the mentality of materialists, the dominating paradigm of our time, after all.

But I am not of that persuasion, and I do indeed believe there is a "force of nature" operating here, a pattern that repeats itself in just about every natural process (and by natural process I mean a kind of _metaphysical_ natural process and not one strictly in terms of mechanistic atomic interactions!), and which we can strive to understand, if just a little bit.

But I am not going to analyze such complex matters here and now, I will be content with supposing the existence of such a pattern and elucidate as to it's significance and not it's causes. Again the strictly material mechanics of these wildly different events is less important than the interpretation of what it means for me, or for the entities experiencing such a breakdown.

Incidentally, the words "breakdown" or "collapse" may suggest a negative connotation, but just like the Tarot cards of Death and The Tower, things are not good or bad per se. Nature indeed operates in cycles and change, and every part of the process is a necessary element of the general unfolding of this thing called "Life" (with a capital L because we are talking about one of the Great Mysteries for which all our rationalising understanding is quite insufficient.)

But that is the need for wiping all my books, or burning the library at the cultural centre of the ancient world? Certainly, great losses were incurred in the latter, how could anyone benefit from that?

I can only speak for my own case. Here is a likely cause: After I have accumulated so much, I find myself overwhelmed with material, gigabytes upon gigabytes of material I will likely never read, and which is both disparate and redundant at times. Say, do I really need 10 books on the Kabbalah (insert whatever spelling you favor here, idc), especially if it is only ancillary to other topics in which I am actually interested? Am I going to read them all just to be able to follow some other book on, say, hellenistic astrology? It is nice to have as much information as possible on a topic, so reading becomes a lot more pleasurable when I am able to understand more and more of what is not explicitly told in a book. But I wouldn't want to drown in trivia either, so that I can never get to my destination because at every step, like Zeno's paradox, I have to first get halfway there.

Similarly, a great burning of books is certainly a regrettable event, as is the mass extinction of species. But whereas knowledge (or biological diversity) is potentially infinite, material resources are not, and from time to time, resources have to be freed for new developments to be made, a "metastable" ecosystem has to (and indeed will by it's own) be thrown off balance, in which the continual struggle for survival continues to be an operating force driving things forward (for what sake? that is not my place to say!), and out of which will emerge hopefully the best, at any rate the most fit, the ones that distill the essence of the lessons gained in the previous generation, and the big deck of cards of available information shuffled to allow for more fruitful interaction.

Simiarly when I wipe my books (they are not really lost, dear reader, for I try to keep a backup, knowing all too well I'm going to wipe my data sometime in the future!), I get rid of maybe those 10 books of Qabala which I meant to read at some point, but of which I need, at the present at least, only a passing acquaintance. How I wish I could be a scholar and read all those books and more, and all primary sources, in their original language, and all scholarship that has revolved around them. But from time to time I need to choose what I am really going to focus on, and forget about all the rest, and burn the library to the ground, leaving just those few resources which I know I will want to keep using for the time being.

Whether that is a healthy or even at all productive modus operandi, I will leave for you to judge; right now, I can start all over again with the never ending quest to learn more about the world and to acquire skills that at least I consider useful (even if the rest of the world would disagree!)

If you got this far, I both thank you for your patience and apologize for the brain dump. Most of all, I hope my introspective thoughts give you some food for thought about our psychology, or about the world at large. If all that fails, I hope I have amused you for a few minutes.

~bartender, I'll have a tall espresso, please, I will be busy with the few books I savaged from the big fire.


tffb

I recalled "Torching the Modern Day Library of Alexandria" from The Atlantic that covered the court-ordered dismantling of Google Books, and their huge investment in "digitizing every written piece of work in existence". Obviously, it was drowning in copyright violations and was shot down in court quickly. They devised amazing aways of digitizing (and making searchable) all written content: different ways of having machines recognize a books page thickness and size and weight, the angles and levels used for such and such book, so their machines were not just tearing apart the pages. How they obtained different documents, etc. Hell of a read. ironically, the court ordered them to stop copying, and not ditribute (even for free) any of it, but not destroy what was digitized, so a handful of Google employees can (theoretically) go through and access what they got stored. Est 35% of all written works were put on their servers. Insane.

Also, Google is terrible now, for the better they didn't get everything copied, and (in all likelyhood) overrun libraries, only for a Google Library *fee* instead. I'll take libraries (and physical books).

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detritus

Copyright! The great mafia that, as elites tend to do, aims to keep information in chains in order to mantain an artificial market for the sake of, you guessed it, circulating money. If money stops it's endless cycles those who do nothing will perish, that cannot be allowed!

I have no sympathy for Google whatsoever, their digitizing sounds like a noble enterprise, and apparently it was at least being done with care. I do remember seeing a documentary about that effort. But, as implied, such a "noble" work done by an evil conglomerate is not any less evil.

I am happy to ilegally download as much copyrighted material as possible, and I think that is a good thing to do, and everybody should strive to do that. Then, if you really like a book and want to benefit the author, you can always buy the book, but we shouldn't be kept from reading it just because we haven't paid for it. Back to the 10 Cabala books, am I going to pay for each of them just to peruse it to see if it is worth keeping?

There is an even better way to "pay" for those books, and it is to keep the tradition alive, to keep them around for when the actual burning of the alexandrian library that is the internet does indeed burn in the next great political maneuver, and of course, to disseminate them as far and wide as possible.

And let the copyright elites die a million deaths. Hopefully, they'll be trapped in the building and share the destiny of their precious "property".

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inquiry

Copyright: yet another emergent property of enough people behaving self-centrically, whose behaving thusly includes believing there really is such a thing upon noticing enough other people believing it's more than an emergent property - i.e. that it's "real" - that one best join that club or seem like a silly little person that doesn't "get it".

I've looked high and low for it, an still haven't founded save as an alleged it/thing.

Q: Where is it?

A: It's real. It's just that it doesn't register with any of your senses.

Q: What?

A: That's right It's a different kind of existing. But that kind of existing is real too.

Q: But....

A: Is there something wrong with you? Most of us are saying it exists and is real.

Q: I was hoping there might be more to it than that?

A: Just how fucking stupid *are* you? Of *course* it exists, and of *course* it's real! Practically everyone but you knows it!

Q: But where is it?

A: OMFG! Enough of you. Come back some other day when you've finally accepted as real what the majority of people are saying is real.

And so goes the ongoing nightmare of cave shadows sometimes referred to as individuality....

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detritus

Are you okay, friend? It looks like your quest for existence in the strictly material is giving you some, ahem, trouble.

~bartender, give this man some bourbon, it'll do him right!

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inquiry

Hey, howya doin'?!

I'm fine. But I understand notions I've come to believe - if not cherish - could look like outright insanity to any who haven't done the same prep work/study.

I mean, if a non-musician knew nothing about piano playing, what must a pianist in action look like to them? Perhaps even a seizure in the more involved passages? And yet as they learn more and more about it - especially in the doing of it - at some point it all seems perfectly natural.

But I'll take that bouron anyway. Thanks!

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detritus

Back to the topic of copyright, you are right, it doesn't exist.

Copyright: yet another emergent property of

Copyright is not an emergent promerty, that's why it doesn't exist. Somebody made that up and other people use it to enforce an artificial market. Maybe the artificial market is an emergent property of this dumb idea of copyright, and piracy is another emergent property. So is the case with other funny words, for example democracy. Democracy does not exist, it is not an emergent property, though it should be, in that case it would exist. It is just a word that people use to mean, well, a different thing each time, maybe the institutions that emerge from it are real.

Ultimately none of the abstractions we hold in our head about things that we perceive as reality are real, if all that is real is the atomic interactions between them, but I'm suspecting even those atomic interactions are not real, indeed they are less real as they are abstractions of our minds, which are themselves just emergent properties of neural synapses, which are just an idea that we abstract in our brains and....

*proceeds to eat his own tail*

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inquiry

Okay. It seems we're agreeing about what's seemingly happening, but not about some of the words that might best describe it.

One says "It's *this*!" (where 'this' is a set of one or more words). Another says, "No, it's *that*!" (where 'that' is a different set of one or more words), when (to me) the less confusing way to proceed is to perpetually remind ourselves of what you said here:

Ultimately none of the abstractions we hold in
our head about things that we perceive as
reality are real, if all that is real is the
atomic interactions between them, but I'm
suspecting even those atomic interactions are
not real, indeed they are less real as they
are abstractions of our minds, which are
themselves just emergent properties of neural
synapses, which are just an idea that we
abstract in our brains and....

*proceeds to eat his own tail*

by saying, instead, "It's best modeled/represented by *this*!" or "No, it's best modeled/represented by *that*!", because then we're acknowledging that we're working with

re-presentations/models.

Instead, we say "it's", i.e. "it *IS*", which gives the impression we're working with the actual referents, i.e. the alleged "real thing". But mind can't have/hold an "real thing". Shit, it can't even but have/hold/grasp *itself*.

So, oh yeah, the "*proceeds to eat his own tail*", the infinite recursion of symbols when you want to get down to what might be called the "bare metal" of "reality" using a tool that can't jump over its own re-presentational knees, as it were....

There's a certain "shut up and just be" to the stuff I've come to cherish. Any/all attempts to describe lead to becoming mesmerized-unto-deluded by the proverbial cave wall shadows also known as symbols/models/re-presentations taken to be the "bare metal".

(I'm vaguely remembering reading someone in the (now) distant past who emphasized the importance of letting go of the word 'is' as much as possible as a means of escaping the afore-alluded-to illusion, but I can't remember who it was.)

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detritus
There's a certain "shut up and just be" to the stuff I've come to cherish.

Yeah this is more or less the ideal solution. And yet I am tangled in the discoursive interpretation of the world. At every step, though, I am reminded of the limited value of this practice, and yet, I have to keep myself entertained.

Especially in the current dominating narrative, which is exclusively rationalist, it is hard to keep still among all the conflicting theorizations of what reality is supposed to be, and the value of anything that is not hard materialistic science, which will always, in regards to practical considerations and also philosophical ponderings, rear it's head and put into question one's own interpretation of the world. Is there a god, or in indeed money THE god?

I am aware that I a eventually going to die without having grasped the truth, at least not by rationalizing means. But I like to juggle symbols about, and in such juggling one is buffetted by systems of symbols vying for one's attention. I can't commit to one and only one, yet I cannot be open to everything lest I run the risk of not profundizing at all. There is value in yielding a tool and learning to use it to the best possible means, which then means learning the philosophy behind it, and being able to hold it against the criticism of the western mind.

I hope the day finds you well, ~bartender, a tall espresso and whatever inq's having.

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inquiry
I am aware that I a eventually going to die without having grasped the truth, at least not by rationalizing means.

The best explanation I've encountered goes something like: grasping conceals truth for being an operation of a being whose presumed existence constitutes flat out denial of the truth.

I hope the day finds you well, ~bartender, a tall espresso and whatever inq's having.

Today it's fluids that prepare one for a colonoscopy. ;-)

By the way, if that goes horribly wrong early tomorrow morning, it was good textually drinking with you....

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detritus
a being whose presumed existence constitutes flat out denial of the truth.

Why would the subject's existence presuppose a denial of truth?

Ultimately, you are right, pretending to apprehend the "truth" is afutile endeavour, much like trying to cup your hands and hold water in them.

I hope your, em, procedure went smoothly, and that you can join us for more drinks!

~bartender, get this man some naproxen.

I will have another bourbon so he can watch me drink while he cant >:)

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inquiry
>> a being whose presumed existence constitutes flat out
>> denial of the truth.
>
> Why would the subject's existence presuppose a denial
> of truth?

Because existence of free-willed agents separate from <ineffable> (a symbol I prefer to "God" for the latter too easily falling into anthropomorphic silliness) denies the truth of the matter, which is that there are no such "real" things - rather, re-presentations taken to be "real" things. In fact, it's even weirder than that: it's as though the re-presentations take themselves to be "real" things. The Christian term for such alleged beings is "sinner", fallen from <inneffable> ("grace") in a weird loop of the aforementioned presumption that in Christian terminology is called "pride" - which is why it is said to precede "a fall" - again, from <ineffable>.

I can't promise/guarantee to put it in words apprehend-able by all, because of previously mentioned necessary "preliminary work", so if this were USENET, there'd already dozens of scoffing objections representing people tripping over their own private meanings/understandings. <shrugs>

But, well, you seem sincere, and it's the best sincere effort I can give in this moment.

> Ultimately, you are right, pretending to apprehend the
> "truth" is afutile endeavour, much like trying to cup your
> hands and hold water in them.

Perhaps more accurately: "pretending to be a falsehood that could apprehend truth is a futile endeavor".

> I hope your, em, procedure went smoothly, and that you
> can join us for more drinks!

It was glorious: the bliss of ignorance OF SEEMING FREE-WILLED SELF SEPARATE FROM <INEFFABLE>.... ;-)

> ~bartender, get this man some naproxen.

LOL!

> I will have another bourbon so he can watch me drink while
> he cant >:)

I had an omelet and toast about an hour after the procedure, then a popsicle, lots of water, currently devouring a bowl of wondrous watermelon at the moment.

The main issue is weariness for too little sleep two nights in a row.

It was a Catholic hospital, and the chaplain that stopped by rather cruelly mentioned beers and bloody mary's on his recent visit with family in the Ozark's. I want an entire pitcher of bloody mary right now, but my wife will definitely keep my nose to the "no alcohol until tomorrow" grindstone.... <weeps>

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detritus
Because existence of free-willed agents separate from [god] denies the truth of the matter,

Mystical traditions seem to point to the fact of the matter being that us entities are not at all separate from <ineffable>. I guess the "fall" and all that amounts to ignorance of this fundamental unity, the "illusion of separation". A subject's existence is not a denial of Truth but a confirmation of it. And entities are not fake, if we are integral parts of what is true and real.

I'm quite unsure whether you're denying what you call <ineffable> here.

there'd already dozens of scoffing objections representing people tripping over their own private meanings/understandings. <shrugs>

Yes, that's the problem of talking with other people about things. Everybody makes a million assumptions they are not willing to notice, and thinks everybody else mean the same things merely because they use the same words.

you seem sincere

thank you I guess, the truth is, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I am glad you came out of that fine. ~bartender, two bloody marys, please. ;-)

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inquiry
>> Because existence of free-willed agents separate from
>> [god] denies the truth of the matter,
>
> Mystical traditions seem to point to the fact of the
> matter being that us entities are not at all separate
> from <ineffable>. I guess the "fall" and all that amounts
> to ignorance of this fundamental unity, the "illusion
> of separation". A subject's existence is not a denial of
> Truth but a confirmation of it. And entities are not fake,
> if we are integral parts of what is true and real.

"I" couldn't have said it better "my" "self"! :-)

> I'm quite unsure whether you're denying what you call
> <ineffable> here.

Nor could "you" be sure, seemingly being i-solated to "your" conceptuality context ("mind") when contemplating it.

  • But*, in practice (i.e. in the seeming practicing of being what "we"'re not..), what "we" call 'suffering' (and/or varieties of synonyms) seems to be a re[a]liable indicator of that denying thang being seemingly in progress.
>> there'd already dozens of scoffing objections
>> representing people tripping over their own private
>> meanings/understandings. <shrugs>
>
> Yes, that's the problem of talking with other people about
> things. Everybody makes a million assumptions they are not
> willing to notice, and thinks everybody else mean the same
> things merely because they use the same words.

And, of course, note the underlying dualistic assumption of a "self" in contradistinction to other "selves".

Given that assumption, the, um, let's call it "tower of texturally babel-ing misunderstanding outcome" is *by definition*!

>> you seem sincere
>
> thank you I guess, the truth is, I don't know what I'm
> talking about.

Perhaps it's more accurate to say that talking - or any form of re-presenting (the basis for "knowing") - couldn't possibly know <ineffable>, i.e. un-re-presentable?

It's hilarious, really, for as misleading as words are, they also hold keys which, properly held together semi-simultaneously, unlock the wordless door. It seems to come down to how seriously they (words) are taken to be reality - as opposed to rigorously re-membering they merely re-present.

I mean, check out one instance crouching in that: re-present is "present again", and 'present' "is" (haha) both the notion of "showing" (appearance) and the notion of "now"... so think (hehe) "the appearance of now again (and again.. and again...)", aka the notion of *time*... which is also (going back further in English) *suffering*....

<exhales deeply deliriously>

> I am glad you came out of that fine. ~bartender, two bloody
> marys, please. ;-)

Thank you kind <wants to type 'sir', but doesn't want to get shot down by the you're-a-'hater'-if-you-don't-perpetually-acknowledge-the-alleged-infinite-varieties-of-i-dentifiable-with-genders police>!

Oh, and FWIW the following has somewhat begun to tie in:

Aliases are hard, perhaps impossible, on the modern Web
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detritus

I am not an agnostic, however. I have been trying to get in touch with mysticism, I don't think we are supposed to be completely ignorant of the only reality out there. Though the dominant materialistic stance of my surroundings would point entirely in the opposite direction. I do believe words have a purpose, and whereas we tend to think of words as merely empty representations of reality, I think symbols hold a lot more power than we give them credit for. The illusion of separation also applies to the separation of the phenomena we perceive in our reality, whether they are of a physical or psychological nature, or a purely "illusory" one rooted in our own vantage point. One interesting example is astrology and the planets. Educated in the doctrine of material cause-and-effect I was always a skeptic of astrology. Only recently I've been trying to get out of that limiting frame and try to understand how and why the ancients considered the influence of distant luminaries in the happenings of the world.

I mean, check out one instance crouching in that: re-present is "present again", and 'present' "is" (haha) both the notion of "showing" (appearance) and the notion of "now"... so think (hehe) "the appearance of now again (and again.. and again...)", aka the notion of *time*... which is also (going back further in English) *suffering*....

That's a very interesting analysis. If we merely afford words the place of superficial, imperfect representations of an otherwise continuous reality, we will miss the fact that our very brains are an extension, and in a way, a "fruition" of such representation under the consideration of interpreting entities, and that the mappings they develop, further expressed in mappings of a broader, social interpretation, then the whole analysis would (and by materialists certainly is) be dismissed as fruitless. And yet such etymological glosses do a decent job at untangling the development of our current modes of thought from that archetypal source which we all ultimately share.

I am not sure the preceding paragraph makes a lot of sense, so I will proceed and draw an analogy with an area of computer programming.

Image based, object oriented systems, the prime example of which would be smalltalk. There aren no classes or class inheritance here, as in more... degenerate forms of OOP. A single object or a small number of primitive object types from the basis for everything else. Whenever we need a new object that's slightly different from the ones in existence, we "clone" them and then proceed to make adjustments: change their state, add methods to them, etc. In that way we may end up with a very complex system, but where every object in a way shares a common ancestry, from which they all derive their truths through much differentiation. That is more or less how I imagine the human psyche and all the human systems of thought, especially those devoted to what I call systems of 'mystic' knowledge, The underlying truth behind every and all such systems remains the same, for there can be no two of them. But each culture has tapped into that source and differentiated according to a myriad of necessities due to the context of their development, be it climate, challenges presented by their environment, or social happenings such as the recurring political movements by masses of people with particular ambitions. This differentiation may mean words develop in strangely different ways, but the kernel of truth from which they all stem remains there hidden behind much refinement, and can potentially be traced back, although always imperfectly because of our vantage point, thousands if not millions of years removed from the starting point.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, I am not in my most eloquent moment right now. I just don't want to stay silent for a week trying to find the best moment to ... explain myself.

* * *

Thank you kind [sir]!

Salut, sir!

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inquiry
> I am not an agnostic, however. I have been trying to get in
> touch with mysticism, I don't think we are supposed to be
> completely ignorant of the only reality out there. Though
> the dominant materialistic stance of my surroundings
> would point entirely in the opposite direction. I do
> believe words have a purpose, and whereas we tend to
> think of words as merely empty representations of reality,
> I think symbols hold a lot more power than we give them
> credit for. The illusion of separation also applies to the
> separation of the phenomena we perceive in our reality,
> whether they are of a physical or psychological nature,
> or a purely "illusory" one rooted in our own vantage point.

To me, symbols are utterly empty save for how a given symbolic context ("mind") fills them. And, as so-called individuals, that context isn't even stable from moment to moment: one moment the symbol 'self' means - i.e. "is filled with" - one thing, a few moments later something else. Sure, there might not be a whole lotta "diff" betwixt them, but there can be, and certainly seems to be the wider the temporal space betwixt the moments.

(Sorry about my sudden obsession with the symbol 'betwixt'... something must have activated my "inner Frasier"....)

> One interesting example is astrology and the
> planets. Educated in the doctrine of material
> cause-and-effect I was always a skeptic of astrology. Only
> recently I've been trying to get out of that limiting frame
> and try to understand how and why the ancients considered
> the influence of distant luminaries in the happenings of
> the world.

Again, who's to say (although we're clearly trying "really hard") how and/or why symbols are filled with what meaning/significance? I can't say I've ever been into astrology overall, but I do remember that the first time I read the alleged attributes of "a Pisces", and that my much younger mind went, "Yep! That's me!", which led to an ongoing sense of "Maybe there really is something to astrology, despite there being only that one aspect that rang true *once* when I was arguably too young to 'know any better'?"

> That's a very interesting analysis. If we merely afford
> words the place of superficial, imperfect representations
> of an otherwise continuous reality, we will miss the fact
> that our very brains are an extension, and in a way, a
> "fruition" of such representation under the consideration
> of interpreting entities, and that the mappings they
> develop, further expressed in mappings of a broader, social
> interpretation, then the whole analysis would (and by
> materialists certainly is) be dismissed as fruitless. And
> yet such etymological glosses do a decent job at untangling
> the development of our current modes of thought from that
> archetypal source which we all ultimately share.
>
> I am not sure the preceding paragraph makes a lot of sense,

It does. But I feel compelled to add that doesn't mean that what's making sense to me is what (about it) makes sense to you, i.e. the sense/meaning you intended it to mean to me. And I don't know of a way to compare the sense/meaning of it to you with the sense/meaning of it to me, because we wind up having no tools beyond these silly little symbols, which is just barely a bit of surface cruft compared with the plethora of symbol associations privately informing every single symbol per utterly private life experiences/learning.

The solution we seem to settle for is conveniently forgetting that, and therein "hoping for the best". *Or*, giving up and going forward discussing topics that don't stray too far beyond "the weather".... :-)

> so I will proceed and draw an analogy with an area of
> computer programming.
>
> Image based, object oriented systems, the prime example
> of which would be smalltalk. There aren no classes or
> class inheritance here, as in more... degenerate forms
> of OOP. A single object or a small number of primitive
> object types from the basis for everything else. Whenever
> we need a new object that's slightly different from the
> ones in existence, we "clone" them and then proceed to
> make adjustments: change their state, add methods to them,
> etc. In that way we may end up with a very complex system,
> but where every object in a way shares a common ancestry,
> from which they all derive their truths through much
> differentiation. That is more or less how I imagine
> the human psyche and all the human systems of thought,
> especially those devoted to what I call systems of 'mystic'
> knowledge, The underlying truth behind every and all
> such systems remains the same, for there can be no two
> of them. But each culture has tapped into that source and
> differentiated according to a myriad of necessities due to
> the context of their development, be it climate, challenges
> presented by their environment, or social happenings such
> as the recurring political movements by masses of people
> with particular ambitions. This differentiation may mean
> words develop in strangely different ways, but the kernel
> of truth from which they all stem remains there hidden
> behind much refinement, and can potentially be traced
> back, although always imperfectly because of our vantage
> point, thousands if not millions of years removed from
> the starting point.
>
> I don't know if any of this makes sense, I am not in
> my most eloquent moment right now. I just don't want to
> stay silent for a week trying to find the best moment to
> ... explain myself.

I think the way our struggle to mutually "make sense" of shared symbols illustrates the problematic nature of symbolic mediation between utterly separate symbol contexts ("minds"), e.g. how quickly it explodes into more words than any of us really have time for, and how each iteration tends toward even more of the same to hopefully "make sense" of what came before.

I get the feeling all symbolic attempt roads lead to good 'ole: "The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao"....

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